Posted by: Jared | May 28, 2009

Katie Couric: “No Atheists in foxholes”

A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no atheists in foxholes on a TV newscast:

Dear Miss Couric,

While there is nothing wrong highlighting in the program the role that religion has played in the American Armed Forces, I find your mindless parading of that silly old aphorism, “there are no Atheists in foxholes,” to be thoughtless and downright offensive to the families of uncountable numbers of atheists, and I include Agnostics, who gave their lives wearing the uniform of the American Armed Forces. Yes, there are, and always have been Atheists, both draftees and volunteers on the battlefield, many of whom bare the scars of war or are ironically buried below white crosses in battlefields throughout the world.

I’m in a position to know. After initially being nominated to WestPoint, I enlisted in the United States Army as a Private in 1964, where I served 21 years on active duty retiring as a Master Sergeant in 1985. As one who is not shy about proclaiming my firm non-belief in any supernatural nonsense, religious or otherwise, I became aware of literally thousands of fellow Atheists in uniform all over the world. Some were overt and public about their beliefs. Some were not. But all were willing to lay down their lives if necessary. Many did.

The military is fully aware of the existence of Atheists in uniform, and in fact makes specific allowances for us in the oath enlistment. In the oath there is a clear choice. We can swear before God, the Great Pumpkin, or whatever, to serve our country. Or we can affirm the oath. There are no bibles or other sacred books used in this oath unlike for some political offices. The only item required to be present is the American Flag. All my reenlistments were affirmed as were hundreds of others I witnessed. Under affirmed oath I personally encountered dozens of soldiers wearing purple hearts bronze stars and at least five silver stars. Among them were Special Forces, Rangers, and Intelligence Officers, Artillerymen, Tank Crewmen, Cooks, Paratroopers, Combat Medics, Truck Drivers, and Infantrymen. There are no atheists in foxholes? I beg to differ.

Preachers may blather on about serving for “God and country,” but as any number of combat studies have proven, that is “pure crap,” to use a traditional military term. Soldiers certainly do enlist for patriotic motives and many of them no doubt have deeply held religious beliefs, but this is not why in the heat of combat they risk their lives. They risk their lives for their fellow soldiers, to not let their comrades down, and to secure the survival of their buddies and themselves by getting the job done as rapidly and brutally as possible.

Broadcasting a feel good puff-piece on religion is all well and good, but perpetuating the nonsense that only religious zealots defend their country is not only offensive but demonstrably wrong. Most Atheists and Agnostics in uniform get stuck with the Army’s famous euphemism of “no religious preference” on their dog tags. But mine simply said “Atheist,” after some initial arguments with my superiors. I am offended by your comments primarily in memory of the silent masses of non believers who did not make it back to object to your treatment of their deeply help beliefs. I believe you and NBC owe them an apology.

Gid L. White

Master Sergeant, United States Army (Ret)

read more | digg story

Advertisements

Responses

  1. This is a very thought provoking rebuttal and I hope it changes some peoples perceptions.

  2. I think you misunderstand the quote…it’s not saying that aetheists do not defend our country, it’s saying that when people fear imminent death, in their desperation they find it hard to remain atheists.

  3. And I think that, even using that interpretation, the rebuttal stands.

  4. I served in the infantry in Vietnam, and I assurre you there were (and are) atheists in foxholes. I discussed this subject with some friends once, and my take is that it’s very hard to believe in a God who would allow the kind of carnage and random death that a soldier in combat learns to fear.

  5. bravo!

  6. “I think you misunderstand the quote…it’s not saying that aetheists do not defend our country, it’s saying that when people fear imminent death, in their desperation they find it hard to remain atheists.”

    That would imply that atheist are only atheist because they haven’t been in a situation yet that has made them believe in something supernatural or divine. I’m not sure if that’s such a positive remark about atheists, so in my opinion, his article is a very valid one no matter how you take that quote.

  7. “I think you misunderstand the quote…it’s not saying that aetheists do not defend our country, it’s saying that when people fear imminent death, in their desperation they find it hard to remain atheists.”

    Um, yeah I’ll call BS on this one!

    Firstly look up what a “foxhole” is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxhole

    Then understand the difference between being dead and alive… i.e. referring to someone “down a foxhole” implies they are still alive and fighting (and thus has nothing to do with dying and somehow as you put it, becoming an irrational lunatic right before they die).

    btw, Great post mate! … I hope NBC actually apologize on-air.

  8. What a ridiculous load self-righteous douchebaggery. Is there anything anyone can say anymore that won’t upset some idiot somewhere?

  9. When Katie said that, wasn’t she asking someone that question to someone else in the first place….?

    This was over a year ago when she said it as well.

  10. Yes this was a statement from awhile ago. But the original host took down the letter. And I felt it was far too important of a response not to be seen again.

  11. I also have trouble understanding common sayings and feel I would fit in well with your religion. Please send me more information about this “atheism”.

    p.s. – good luck getting that stick out.

  12. Sorry, but the argument that “No loving God would allow such things as soldiers witness in combat” just doesn’t hold water.

    Just because God is beyond our capability to understand does not mean that he doesn’t exist,

  13. […] read more | digg story […]

  14. I fail to see why this comment was so offensive. I fail to see how it holds any ramifications for atheists in the military. I fail to see how it denies them pay or makes them poorer soldiers.

    Maybe I’m just a failure, but shouting “OH GOD, HOLY HELL” during a firefight does not make you a Christian. Accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior makes you a Christian. So, unless you get shot at and scream “I ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS MY PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR AND MAY HIS BLESSINGS FOREVER BE UPON ME”, I don’t see why it matters.

    I’m an atheist now, and no matter how many times I yell “HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, THAT GUY JUST SHOT AT ME”, it won’t make me a Christian. His comment was almost irrelevant. Please, cowboy up. Someone made a rather dumb remark about atheism. He has a right to say exactly whatever dumb things he wants to say.

    You fought for that right.

  15. I think the writers first name fits him, Gideon of the bible was also a doubter of God’s ways. As a follower of Christ ( read non-churchy ) You have my appologies for being lumped in with us so thoughtlessly. Anything that spews from Katie’s mouth is pure drivel anyway…

    I’m sure the writer has had many conversations with different people about Chirst. Christ himself said not all who heard would hear his call.

  16. I’m almost inclined to believe that someone made this up. I’m a young guy, not religious at all, but I can’t believe someone would feign offense at the phrase: “there were no atheists in foxholes.” When a person’s atheism becomes an almost religious fervor, where does that leave them?

    Sometimes it really does seem as if people cannot say or write anything that won’t offend someone out there.

  17. Thank you sir and I salute you. I have been waiting for someone from the Armed Forces to stand up and say the things you are saying. Mr Malone while i understand that you are currently unable to understand a world without a divine love bunny, that doesn’t mean that there is one, God is like the Tooth fairy a lovely story to tell the kids to help them sleep.
    I find your patriotism stirring Mr. White even more so as an atheist because that means you truly fought for country and not some nonsensical “God says their evil” idea.

  18. Fundamentalism can be measured by the extent to which you wish to impose your worldview/opinions/religion on others, yes?

    A non-fundamentalist would presumably wish to prevent you from harming him, stealing his property, or otherwise causing him material difficulty, but beyond that would leave you to your own devices.

    A fundamentalist, on the other hand, might try and force you, a complete stranger, to apologize on national television for saying a sequence of meaningless words that “offend” them.

  19. I am a little confused here.
    Isn’t Katie Couric talking about the terrorists?
    “There are no atheists in foxholes”, meaning that all the terrorists who are in foxholes are religious fanatics.
    If only everyone would become atheist, then there would be no religious zealotry, and no terrorists in foxholes…

  20. […] In response to Katie Couric’s idiotic remark that there are “no atheists in a foxhole”, Master Sergeant Gid L. White responds and shows that there have been and still are thousands of athe…. […]

  21. I agree with the original poster. I am in the United States military and I am an atheist. I defend the rights of all americans whether they be atheist or not. I do this for my family and the preserve the freedoms that I, and others, use everyday.

  22. […] “There are No Atheists in foxholes” Filed under: Uncategorized — recar @ 8:41 am Katie Couric: “There are No Atheists in foxholes” A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were […]

  23. “There are no atheists in foxholes” speaks more about the nature of foxholes than the nature of atheism.

    Purposely mis-quoted from James Morrow

  24. A further point is that the atheist who gives up his live gives up everything, whereas a believer is merely giving up this world for some (alledged) better happy place: whose sacrifice is the greater??

  25. I’ve always felt sympathy for the Americans who are so indecently persecuted for their atheism. The multi-cultural diversity of Australia makes it very easy to be and publicize being an atheist. It’s probably why this kind of behaviour is sickening.

    Either way, it was a most beautiful and well-written rebuttal.

  26. fundamentalism |ˌfəndəˈmentlˌizəm|
    a form of Protestant Christianity that upholds belief in the strict and literal interpretation of the Bible, including its narratives, doctrines, prophecies, and moral laws.
    • strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or ideology, notably Islam.

    Please don’t misunderstand a man’s passion for truth with fundamentalism or change it’s definition to suit your own purpose.

  27. Somebody once said:

    “This is no argument for religion. It is an argument against foxholes.”

  28. Master Sergeant Gid L. White is right.
    The only place there are no atheists is in heaven.

  29. I am an athiest, and I want my comment to be considered in that context.

    The meaning of the aphorism is not that atheists don’t fight in wars, but that the fear of death causes a desperate hope for an afterlife; the aphorism means to say that atheists find God in foxholes. Thus this is really just a storm in a teacup.

  30. NBC? You mean CBS, right?

  31. So we’ve got a bunch of people saying that fear of death (e.g. under duress) “makes people find god”.

    Great reason that.. I’d have to say: since even the concept of a monotheistic religion is a relatively new one that just living your life well, with a well thought out set of morals (rather than the emotional crutch that is religion) would be far more likely to get you into an afterlife than belief in the “new” concept of just one god. So to all you “there’s no aethiests in heaven”: your version of that is only a few thousand years old. I suggest you pay equal homage to zeuss and the greek gods or the forest spirits etc if you want a longer track record than your “one true” religion..

    Well thought out response from the poster: just ignore the US media.. It’s obsessed with biblethumping away and demonizing people that have the balls to rationally examine the concept of religion and go against the overwhelming push to be religious like a good sheep..

  32. Very well said. The idea that people who do not believe in a god or other supernatural being are somehow less patriotic, less willing to lay down their lives for their country, is deeply wrong.

    As you point out, there are thousands of atheists and agnostics in the US military (and probably a similar proportion in the UK’s armed forces). If someone is risking their life on my behalf then I don’t care whether they believe in Jesus, Allah, Buddah, or no deity at all. A soldier does not need religious faith

    Oh and by the way, I’m a Catholic. That doesn’t make me any less offended by the ‘no atheists in foxholes’ nonsense.

  33. I can’t stand K.C. or the verbage that pours out of the media sewer.
    However everyone has a choice in what to believe.
    I believe God can show Himself in the beauty of a sunrise as well in the depths of a foxhole.
    “…every knee shall bow…”

  34. Religion is nothing more than an imposed, socially accepted delusion, and it’s time to stop accepting it and start unbrainwashing people. It is wrong to brainwash children by convincing them that a supernatural god and afterlife exist when they’re too young to question things.

  35. “Just because God is beyond our capability to understand does not mean that he doesn’t exist,”

    Just because God doesn’t exist does not mean that he is beyond our capability to understand.

    Just because God is beyond our capability to understand does not mean that he does exist

    WOW… It works so many ways!!!

  36. The point is not whether god can be found in the beauty of a foxhole. The point is that Christian media figures have this “conversion fetish” regarding atheists.. it appears they love to believe that atheists are insincere people who will come running with their tail between their legs back to Jesus when the going gets tough. I’m sure this happens occasionally, just as some Christians lose their faith in God by witnessing the carnage of the battlefield.

    Nevertheless, it is derogatory to insist as a formula with this stupid saying that atheists are of lesser moral fibre. Why is not said,

    “There are no Christians in foxholes”?

    The implication is that Christians are made of stronger stuff; that they can hold their own, mentally, while atheists break and snap under the strain. Christians should really give their atheistic friends more credit… but it’s no surprise that they cannot resist tarring and feathering them at every opportunity.

  37. By: Tom Malone
    Just because God is beyond our capability to understand does not mean that he doesn’t exist,

    And it doesn’t mean he does either!!!

  38. Please excuse the term, but “AMEN!”

  39. If you only believe what can be proved by instant visual terms, it is impossible to prove their is any sort of God. It also means that death is simply cells ceasing to work, and there is no after life.

    The point of life, therefore, is to enjoy ones self. A key point in this equation is that if your life=death, your perception of life will equal zero and therefore it will be impossible to have fun. In light of this, a good atheist should avoid death where possible because the obvious un-fun complications involved.

    So when an atheist is “in a fox hole,” generally thought of as “a position where death is as close as it will ever be to life” it can be assumed that the atheist will consider all possible escapes from the situation because dying will lead to his existence not mattering.

    One escape is simply trying to change belief system so as to most conveniently escape death. “Oh look, Christians believe something about living forever after death, but if a bullet hits my head right now, it will only mean that my cells won’t work any more and all I’ve done up to this point in life will have not mattered.”

    Death is serious business, it stands to ruin all our fun.

    Being an atheist is not so much about not believing in a higher power as it is trying not to be convinced that a higher power exists.

  40. Concerned Human, my sentiments exactly… we should start our own religion based on our lack…. oh wait… erm…

    seriously though, i had a strong roman catholic beleif in god until i was 14, i would love to truely beleive that theres a god, that would be awesome… like superheroes running around but hey it’s just not true/possible.

    lets not bash athiests, or christians, muslims etc…

  41. A further point is that the atheist who gives up his live gives up everything, whereas a believer is merely giving up this world for some (alledged) better happy place: whose sacrifice is the greater??

    How can anyone judge the value of someones’ life based on their beliefs o? Any rational and ethical person can see the flaw in that.

  42. i think you should spend less time worryign abuot what useless presenters say or dont say, and fix your god forsaken country before it goes the way of rome.

  43. Good post, but a bit unnecessary. I mean, who actually listens to Katie Couric in the first place?

  44. the most annoying and offensive thing about Katie Couric’s comment is that she’s talking on TV about something she knows nothing about and people are listening to her as if she’s got some kind of credibility. She has not been in a foxhole, has she? Or studied religion & philosophy? Her skill is speaking clearly. It isn’t thinking or knowing.

  45. Thank you for your service and for setting the record straight. Who knows what Katie Couric really thinks — other than her ratings are terrible.

    I don’t recall the author but the reference to “The Great Vending Machine in the Sky” (may have been Alan Watts) seemed an appropriate way to refer to an object for which one enters prayers in anticipation of outcome.

    While I’ve never been in a foxhole, I have had an experience not dissimilar in potential death. I remained an atheist. The non attachment tenet of the Buddhist philosophy provided a greater sense of peace. I would add, if benefiting from repetitious verbal focus is calming, any mantra will suffice… including nonsense syllables.

  46. There is no god, and a soldier should know for sure.

  47. I’m agnostic and I think this is just silly. It’s a figure of speech idiots…

  48. Aaaa religion. I love these discussions and I love it when atheist start complaining, it just seems silly to me, especially when they refer to their being atheist as “religious befliefs”. Im also amused when the say crap like “what king of God allows such carnage blah blah etc.” Its people who allow and perpetrate the carnage. And besides if you dont believe in God, then what do you care? Everyone in this country is such damn touchy pansy, every little thing offends them. How can that little phrase offend you? Besides this country was founded by Christians, they were nice enuf to say “hey believe what you want” but it was mostly a chistian nation. Either way, dont be so touchy about your beliefs, theres no reason to be offended, but if u want to be offended then allow me, atheists are morons! That one is actually insulting and directed at you, hah no atheists in foxholes is not so much about believing in God as much as its is about how scary and tough war is, you as a military man should know this. Either way, when you are burning in hell, think about the foxhole and then decide whether being atheist was something worth fighting for.

  49. I am also an atheist, and I don’t see any point to joining the parade of the hyper sensitive on this issue. It’s usually the right wing and/or the true believers whose thin skin makes them the source of such silly complaints.
    I don’t think we should indulge in such drivel.
    Besides, as anyone knows, she’s wrong; most atheists are made in foxholes, after screaming at the top of their lungs “Where is God?”

  50. So, basically, if everyone was an atheist, all the foxholes would be empty…

    …that sounds like a good idea, actually.

  51. Regarding “conversion fetish”:

    “If one does not believe in Christianity, it is of no importance. If one does believe in Christianity, it is of every importance.” – C.S. Lewis

    What some people fail to understand, is that it’s hard to believe in Christ, and the fact that you’ve been completely redeemed, and not share it with other people. That’s awfully selfish.

  52. Katie Couric is pejoritively using a quote that was not initially so. I believe she is suggesting that atheists would not fight.

    The original quote was suggesting, as several others here have pointed out, that there is a tendency to “find God” in war. It’s not unlike what happens to the incarcerated. Of course, this is only a generalization and not true for the majority. It’s really a ignorant quote that makes no sense. Just because the media holds James Morrow in high esteem, doesn’t make the quote any less silly.

    Since she was referring to atheists, it’s ok. If she had said “there are no blacks in foxholes”, everyone would be up in arms and the ACLU would be calling for her resignation. THAT is what is really irritating about the whole thing…the neverending hypocrisy of the media.

  53. The quote “There are no atheists in foxholes,” isn’t about the religion of the person in the foxhole. In fact it has little to do with religion at all.

    While the writer does a great job of outlining his beliefs and the contributions of atheist servicemen (and women) he’s missing the point. The quote doesn’t literally mean that only religious people defend this country, or that when confronted by life threatening danger everyone suddenly believes in God. What the quote means is that when soldiers lives are in danger such as pinned downed in a foxhole being pelted by fire and death and feeling hopeless and lost, men think and even say variations of “Please don’t let me die. I want to live.” Like a prayer. And it’s not always a literal prayer to an actual god, but a mantra as if repeating it will make it true. Every man in that foxhole believes in something. Whether it’s God, his mother, or the guys next to him. They want to pull through, they want to go home, and they want to see tomorrow.

    It’s a powerful quote and yes, it has religious connotations, mostly because for many the religion neutral words don’t exist to describe that feeling in the foxhole. No one owes anyone an apology for repeating that quote on air. What is owed is a round of thanks for anyone and everyone who sat in that foxhole and who didn’t want to die but did anyway.

  54. This guy died for your sins.
    Your religion is an epemeral narcotic.
    Men in foxholes are thinking about killing the enemy. They spend very little time thinking about irrelevant mythologies.

  55. I had no idea their non-belief mattered so much to such people. If passing into the great void for his country why would her words upset him or hurt his feelings Couric’s words are part of a vast chaotic swirling vortex of doom anyway. I feel sorry that he got so upset over essentially nothing because nothing is all he has in the end. To invest in nothing but the temporary fulfillment of duty and the other it sound like he is following Confucius. Otherwise to argue with a talking head is just stupid.

  56. right on!

  57. Sounds like a pissed off right-winger to me.

  58. It is “you aren’t *really* an atheist” restated. Turn it around: “There are no Protestants in foxholes, just Catholics praying to Mary.” The invalidity is even more apparent when you substitute in some other group.

  59. I would like to hear a response from an atheist or agnostic who has died in a foxhole. Untill we hear that response it is difficult understtand the statments that are made.

  60. “Hey look, I’m an atheist.” Seems all about attention. Almost compare it to the homosexual crowd. Definately, not condeming either of these groups to the backstreets and alleyways of society but…who cares what orientation either of these groups are. We have all suffered some form of alienation whether by choice or not. Who cares if this hurts your feelings. If the thinner skinned of our society had their way we would all be walking on eggshells with lawyers an arms-length away ready to pounce. Thanks for anyone’s service to their country, regardless of orientation, which I don’t want or need to know.

    Suck it up.

    Cheers.

  61. I quote Darrell Plank:

    Every christian who tries to escape the path of a speeding bullet with fear in his eye is an example of a “foxhole conversion” to atheism and proves they don’t really believe in a heavenly paradise in the hereafter. There are a hell of a lot more of those conversions than there are of atheists to christians.

  62. Tito: “Atheist are morons”

    Let’s scan recent headlines and see what murders religion is responsible for, some recent ones include:

    A 17-year-old girl was stoned to death for loving a boy of another religion.
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/18/iraq.honorkilling/index.html

    Woman: Blame devil for infant in microwave
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/20/baby.in.microwave.ap/index.html

    Beliefs are dangerous!

  63. “I would like to hear a response from an atheist or agnostic who has died in a foxhole. Untill we hear that response it is difficult understtand the statments that are made.”

    hahahaha

  64. You are offended, thats great. That quote refers to the notion that our country was founded on guiding principles such as the belief of a higher power. Most of our families came here to escape religious persecution to be able to worship their God however they felt. The quote reflects an age past where people believed they were protected by a higher power and everything would be the way it should. Somehow, we lost sight of that.

    Read Psalm 23:
    “Though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I shall fear no evil for God is with me….. Thy rod and thy staff.

  65. I my self am Agnostic but I find you asking for an apology pathetic. People are free to say and think what they want, that is what makes this country special. To lash out against someone for saying something like this is truly your poragtive but makes you look pathetic. It’s people like you that got Imus fired for saying what was on his mind. Live and let live.

  66. Hear Hear. We need to curb this religious bigotry in all realms, the media included. Saying something like that should get you fired no matter who you are. It’s the singling out of a religious group, and I risk invoking Godwin’s Law when I say this, but Katie Couric’s statement about athiests isn’t unlike Hitler’s statements about the Jews.

  67. I think the saying should be “More atheist come out of foxholes than go in…”

  68. Do atheists believe in themselves when they’re in a foxhole?

    God doesn’t believe in atheists!

  69. You’re too sensitive. I’m an atheist and if I was in a foxhole with bomb shells going all around me, I’d shit in my pants, and probably pray. It’s just saying in times of desperation, you need to turn to something, sometimes it’s god, could be other things. I don’t believe in god, but you need to grab onto something for hope.

  70. Thank you for such a retort. People like Katie Couric have no business preaching.

  71. Extremely well-said, sir.

    Thank you for your service.

  72. “As one who is not shy about proclaiming my firm non-belief in any supernatural nonsense, religious or otherwise”

    It’s a bit hypocritical to accuse someone of marginalizing Atheists and then in the same vein marginalize religious belief by calling it “Nonsense”.

    The passage in which Couric refers says more of man’s will (or lack thereof) to stick with his/her belief under dire circumstances. It describes a scenario where you are in a foxhole, death is imminent (or so it seems), and you have to decide whether life ceasing to exist at this moment is conceivable to you. When one is confronted with his/her own mortality, it takes a strong person to stick with their beliefs of “this is it, all I did here is all I every was and will be”. In many religions, God provides a life after death, or helps those who ask, hence some who have never prayed before in their life might have a sudden conversion to faith.

    That’s just my take on it, although it may be “nonsense” :)

  73. Oh settle down. The saying isn’t meant to be taken literally. It expresses innate the human need to find something, anything, to grab hold of when they fear for their lives. It’s not a statement of godlessness, it’s a statement of psychology. People should stop being so *** touchy.

  74. @Thoughtful

    What an absurd line of thought. You mean to tell me, that all atheists are cowards who run from a fight? Looking for an escape from a foxhole? Sure, no atheist would ever die to protect his family, or his country. Obviously we’re all a bunch of immoral cowards, and things like honor mean nothing too us.

    @Joe Mamma
    Thank you, now please tell all the street preachers to shut up. If people want to be ‘saved’, they’ll go find them, otherwise, their just attention whores who love how they feel when they ‘save’ someone.
    Aren’t generalizations fun.

    The best argument against religion I ever heard was about where your born. If a Christian would have been born in Iraq or Iran, 98% of them would be Islamic, the same goes for other regions and religions. Its not their fault, thats where they were raised, thats what they were taught as a child. However, according to Christians these people who have been ‘brainwashed’ since they were born are going straight to hell, because they don’t believe what you believe.

  75. An extremely well-written and thoughtful piece. That said, this stuck out to me:

    “There are no bibles or other sacred books used in this oath… The only item required to be present is the American Flag.”

    How sadly ironic that he and his fellow “atheists in foxholes” only traded one religion for another: the cult of the nation, whose crusades have caused more death and misery in a few centuries than any misheld faith managed to accomplish in millennia.

  76. RIP Pat Tillman, the ultimate Atheist in a Foxhole.

  77. MSgt White. This is a fine response. But when you said NBC — I think you meant CBS.

    Katie Couric works for CBS News.

  78. @Atheist

    Most, not all, street preachers are failed used-car salesmen. Seems like a lot of folk have an insincerity about them in that they have to trumpet their beliefs in order to convince themselves that they are in the right. “If some one goes along with me that validates my thoughts” The bottom line is no one knows so we go with either our upbringing, or life experiences to find our faith. Why can’t everyone just admit we really don’t know for sure? What does it hurt though to believe in a higher power just to hedge your bets?

  79. To anon above: A true atheist will never pray, even in the face of death. There is simply nothing to pray to, in the most common sense of the word. If you do not understand the concept, you are likely a theist.

  80. First off this whole phrase is meant to dupe young men into fighting other people’s battles.

    Secondly as someone who has been in the military I have seen first hand that a combat situation causes a lot of people to do a 180 on any values they hold dear, christians and atheists alike. The simple fact is that most people go through their whole life not really knowing what they believe (they are either parroting someone else or reacting against someone else). Put these people in a life or death situation and their mental convictions dissapate. As Bellamy said “It is in unnatural situations that people act most naturally.”

    This article does nothing to refute the idea that in a life or death situation someone may call upon a “god” even though they profess something different later. I can’t believe some idiot here actually quibled over the definition of a foxhole.

    Of course Tom Mullin’s statement is just as vacuous, since it is an argument that simply holds no weight in a combat situation. The point is that in combat one throws out all the sophisticated baggage. The best way to put it is, “there are no sophisticates in foxholes.”

  81. […] of war.. I found this via Digg. I am amazed by the moronic comments made by the talking heads we call newscasters. She needs […]

  82. Get over yourself, and quit being so sensitive. You don’t believe in God … so what. Why must you trot around beating your chest and throwing a tantrum like a pre-teen over what someone said on TV.

    The problem with people today is they take themselves way to seriously. Talk about a degrading ‘feel good piece’? How about you? With your mockingly empathetic:

    “‘I am offended by your comments primarily in memory of the silent masses of non believers who did not make it back to object to your treatment of their deeply help beliefs. I believe you and NBC owe them an apology.”

    Seems the pot calling the kettle black to me. Grand standing is the same no matter from who it is spewed.

    Here is a life point for ya: get over yourself. You and what you think are not that important.

    Signed,
    Someone who could care less if you are ‘offended’

  83. perfect.

  84. @Interested Reader

    OMG…how politically incorrect of you. Those who you offended will now have to double their dosage and call their therapist. Such blatant honesty.

  85. I am athiest. I just want to say that it is stupid to be fighting such a petty remark. I don’t find that remark a personal attack to our religious views. I also think some of these commenters are cracked. Religion can but does not always have to do with a God. Religion is simply a set of beliefs one follows. Athiests follow the belief that there is no supernatural being.

    Also, I thnk it is stupid to say that all athiests believe that there is no God simply based on the idea that “God would not let bad things happen.” This is stupid and a stereotype. I do not believe in God. It has nothing to do with that. I just don’t believe it is possible for there to be a God.

    If you wish to discuss, then do it. I love discussions. But if you are trying to discuss a matter using stereotypes and petty quotes, I am afraid it will really get nowhere.

  86. @ Camie
    If a debate on religion itself is what your looking for. Take a gander at this:
    Religious debate on ABC

  87. Hugh M.
    “…my take is that it’s very hard to believe in a God who would allow the kind of carnage and random death that a soldier in combat learns to fear”

    Wow, did you ever think of the kind of carnage that God allow to happen to his own son, Jesus Christ?

  88. As a Christian I find it strange that you feel this comment should be retracted because it is “offensive” to you, yet another TV personality such as Bill Mahar can publically berate Christanity or religions as a whole and it’s Okay to “athiests”, (There is no such thing by the way as you cannot prove without being omniscient that God doesn’t exist, you are an Agnostic whether you want to admit it or not). I hear all this “I don’t want to be offended and my freedoms should be observed” nonsense, it’s okay that it’s at the expense of others freedoms. I won’t argue that history has shown some unfortunate zeal on some Christian cults, I.E. the crusades, however we didn’t have the “protected freedoms and court of law that exist in this country. You are fighting a was for your “religion” just as many “religious” people did in history and today in other nations. Ultimately I have to agree in some stead with the comments submitted by “Interested Reader” after all you can site that there are thousands on the military, but this is a small (though increasing number at the moment I’ll admit) and insignificant number when considering the hundreds of thousands enlisted today. Agnostics make up a very small group of people in the military and American populace in general. Unfortunately you also make up a much more active portion of the populace as you have figured out what many “religious” people have forgotten, a small group of people can change the face of the world if they are motivated to do it. It saddens me to think that while Bill Mahar and others will never be made to apologize for the offensive comments made to Christians, you will probably get an apology for this comment because it could damage your delicate pysche. Might I suggest you file a lawsuit, the county you are trying to build often rewards stupidity in the courtroom, I’d say you have a good shot at punitive damages. Lastly to “concerned human”, what part of the country do you live in because I want to live where the media is pro-christian. Do you actually have cable there, to get a broader prospective of the countries views? The media is not pro-christian no matter what you choose to believe.

  89. re: Hugh M. Vandervoort

    I believe in a God that grants me the free will to make my own decisions. I make mine, you make yours. In that.. yes, some will always choose death and carnage. If God stepped in, he’d be taking away our free will.

    We have no one to blame for our ill fortunes but ourselves. Blaming a God you don’t even believe in is rather silly.

    All I ask from anyone is that you respect me. I will always go out of my way to respect everyone in their beliefs and customs. Unfortunely that’s not how most people work– Christian, Muslem, atheist, agnostic, white, black, French, Australian, Sri Lankan, Peruvian, whatever. It’s a me-me-me world and anyone different is slammed, exiled, blown up, ignored, or just treated like dirt.

  90. makes sense …

  91. Well said.

  92. Religion is a mental disease.

  93. Hey InterestedReader, try it this way and tell me if you don’t here this almost everyday on the news… and you only condemn this one.

    “Get over yourself, and quit being so sensitive. You believe in God … so what. Why must you trot around beating your chest and throwing a tantrum like a pre-teen over what someone said on TV.

    The problem with people today is they take themselves way to seriously. Talk about a degrading ‘feel good piece’? How about you? With your mockingly empathetic:

    “‘I am offended by your comments primarily in memory of the silent masses of believers who did not make it back to object to your treatment of their deeply help beliefs.”

    Seems the pot calling the kettle black to me. Grand standing is the same no matter from who it is spewed.

    Here is a life point for ya: get over yourself. You and what you think are not that important.

    Signed,
    Someone who could care less if you are ‘offended’

    We atheists hear all the crap that theists spout every day. And rarely is anything said. This man, (Thank you MSgt White for your part in securing our way of life here in the US), decided to stand up and call out some BS. That doesn’t happen very often. “God forbid” one of us say something against religion. Oh, and if you could care less, then why reply at all… oh, that’s right, only theists are allowed to be offended.

  94. First, from Vietnam to The Persian Gulf are not religious wars. These wars were fought based by goverment descision. When we were made in God’s image he gave us free will. It is your choice to believe what you choose. If you don’t believe in God I respect your view. It is a choice you have to make. A man’s religion does not speak to his character. I just hope in turn your respect in my beliefs are reciprocated.

    I served as a Combat Medic and I know there are atheists alive and well in the military. As long as his character shows me when the crap hits the fan we are still brothers.

  95. The biggest misconception is the God allows any “bad” things to happen to “good” people.
    If you study the Bible, you will find that God doesn’t do or allow bad things to happen. Quite the opposite in fact. Lucifer is the “prince of this world” and the father of all pain and sin. WE humans are at fault for all “bad things” that happen. God made the world perfect and the first two humans screwed it up. Without their first sin we would have no wars and killings. It is a deception to pin bad things on God when it is Satan and we humans to blame.

  96. Do you enjoy this mindless banter? I hope you can find something better to complain about in the future. Get a life.

  97. Get lifes and quit being so damn sensative.

  98. Hippies!

  99. Some of these coments are terrible.

    What is this quote saying?:

    a) Why are there no Atheists in foxholes? Because when someone who isn’t religious is put in a situation where they feel they are about to die, out of fear they start praying and develop a sudden belief in God. The term foxhole could be replaced by gas chamber or death row.

    b) The reason this guy has an issue with the quote is that it implies that Atheists don’t have strong convictions and their beliefs break down under threat of death.

    c) Is this is offensive to Atheists? This doesnt offend me but the saying is incorrect and stupid. Believe it or not, it is possible to not have a religion while under threat of death. I think the author proves this point.

  100. @Thomas M

    War, carnage, etc… is a consequence of man being allowed free will. God doesn’t micro-manage.

    Jesus being executed is another symbol for how he considered himself equal with his disciples (i.e. washing their feet at the last supper, having John baptize him in the Jordan, etc…)

  101. It’s like this: this is an issue of free speech. Katie Couric has the right to say idiotic things. The Master Sergeant has the right to be offended and demand an apology. Those of you who think he’s over-sensitive and should just shut up have a right to say so, and I have a right to say that I think you are a bunch of morons for having that opinion.

    We all clear? Good.

    /Atheist
    //Things belief in the supernatural is part of being human, but that doesn’t make it true
    ///Slashies invasion, y’all

  102. Oops, I meant @Hugh M, sorry

  103. Craig: “War, carnage, etc… is a consequence of man being allowed free will. God doesn’t micro-manage.”

    Okay, if God doesn’t micro-manage, why did he do it in the Old Testament? He actually did it quite often, going as far as smite people himself (including Aaron’s sons for not bringing the correct kind of fire to the ritual).

    So, all right, God changed his mind between the Old and New Testaments (when you actually read them, it really seems as if it’s not the same God at all). But wait a minute…isn’t God supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful, and know everything that ever was and ever will be? If so, how could he change his mind? Or was it all pre-ordained? If it is all pre-ordained, then does that mean that God has no free will? If he does have free will, then doesn’t that imply that he doesn’t know everything?

    Any attempt to bring logic into religion obliterates the latter…you guys shouldn’t even try, and fall back on the old medieval cop-out: “the ways of God are unknowable (but I do know he wants you to give us money, and that he hates gays…yeah, that’s the ticket!)”

  104. You know, one reason I’ve always rather disliked the armed forces is the religious overtones that come with them. Of the reason’s I would give for not enlisting, the idea that I would be an outcast in a business where teamwork is paramount was probably the first on the list. Second on the list is the idea that I would be supporting an organization that appears to be the perfect instrument of holy war, which I would want to avoid at all costs. I’m glad to hear that it’s not entirely the case. I realize that we’re only 5-10% of the population, but this atheist at least is partly reassured by this rebuttal.

  105. Dear friend.
    Your Lí text. I make research on religion for a cientist of the religion…sincerely? Not your compreendí text friend!
    Very confused..you work a lot with your feeling…but it was worth!
    Good text that arrested me for the penos for compereender..
    Hugs,
    JB

    http://www.joaobosco.wordpress.com

  106. Nice rebuttal, man, but may I ask why we all have to fight about it? I mean, it’s not like every time Carlos Mencia says that Asian people can’t drive they right an essay proclaiming that they demand an apology. Would they be pissed if we (Atheists) said studies show that -on average- an Atheist is smarter than a theist? Of course they would. And just knowing that we have the ability to do that makes them so angry that they have to say to things like “There are no Atheists in foxholes.”

    BTW
    I don’t agree with Carlos Mencia on the whole “Asians can’t drive” thing. In fact, I like the way they drive. Also, I’ve never seen a study that suggests Atheists are smarter than theists. I know some Atheist, and they do seem smarter, but I think it’s because they hold themselves higher than a theist because they believe there is nothing higher than humanity. I’m not one of those Atheists. I’m like the exact opposite of a deist – I believe in superstition (e. g. rabbit’s foot, lucky charms, horoscopes…), but not religious gods.

  107. […] Katie Couric: “No Atheists in foxholes” A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no atheists in […] […]

  108. […] Katie Couric: “No Atheists in foxholes” « Free Thought Forum “Preachers may blather on about serving for “God and country,” but as any number of combat studies have proven, that is “pure crap,” to use a traditional military term.” (tags: atheism christianity interesting military religion war) […]

  109. Any god that creates a race just so he can have someone grovel at his feet deserves my pity not my worship. Any god that allows his followers to kill torture and commit genocide simply because they are not of the faith is not something I have any wish to be associated ant that is why many feel such disgust with the notion that they are secret believers who let their true nature surface when they are weak.

  110. […] the Free Thought Forum, retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White responds to Katie Couric’s parroting of the old phrase […]

  111. *edited for size by montiff*

    S
    L
    E
    E
    P
    Y

  112. Seems to me that having Atheists in a foxhole is > not having an Atheists in the foxhole;

    Seeing as christians are so ready to die, leave this life and go on to their next…if they aren’t “afraid” of death, and ready to die, why would they fight as hard as needed in a battle to stay alive? If they die, who cares, right? They move on to “something better”…

    Atheists don’t believe in the next life, so this is the one worth saving, so they are going to kick major ass in a war as to not get killed themselves…

    Think I’d like to be surrounded by people interested in this world…not some other…

  113. People still watch Couric?

    According to Variety, the perky anchorwoman managed an average of just 6.1 million viewers. That’s the lowest Tiffany network total since they began tracking the news in 1991!

  114. Hey, you have a great blog here! I’m definitely going to bookmark you !

    And I have A http://www.klamaraby.com/vb

    Come and check it out if you get time

    Thanks alot

  115. By the definition of not believing in a higher being, God must therefore be an Atheist.

    Couric is a complete joke, and CBS would be wise not to renew her contract.

    As an Atheist, I’m offended by her ignorance.
    As a news junkie, I’m offended by her lack of professionalism… and by her ignorance.

    Go ahead, read the damn Bible. Few things can make you an Atheist faster.

  116. Re: Gary Henderson:
    I certainly do respect anyone who tries to make a reasoned and polite answer, as you have.
    I don’t believe in any God at all, and I wasn’t making any choices about death and carnage. The only real choice I, and many others in this situation made, was to join the US Military.
    The Myth we believed in was that our commanders would do their best to train and deploy us in the protection of the United States, its people, and its Constitution.
    Instead, we were used as political pawns in an unwinnable war, waged under false pretenses by hacks and moral cowards. (Does this sound familiar?).
    “We have no one to blame… but ourselves”?
    I”m suggesting that the blame lies with the politicians who perpetrated that war, and this one. When the Commander in Chief elects to risk the lives of American troops, he needs to understand the consequences. Those consequences are of the gravest nature:death and mutilation, usually on a large scale, and having effects that last for many years.
    I freely admit that my experience in combat has influenced my views. Picking up dead and wounded soldiers, hearing the screams and feeling the fear will do that to you.
    This Commander in Chief, and the ones who brought us Vietnam, are trading dead bodies for purely political reasons, and, if there were a God, He would be weeping.

    “I believe in a God that grants me the free will to make my own decisions. I make mine, you make yours. In that.. yes, some will always choose death and carnage. If God stepped in, he’d be taking away our free will.

    We have no one to blame for our ill fortunes but ourselves. Blaming a God you don’t even believe in is rather silly.

    All I ask from anyone is that you respect me. I will always go out of my way to respect everyone in their beliefs and customs. Unfortunely that’s not how most people work– Christian, Muslem, atheist, agnostic, white, black, French, Australian, Sri Lankan, Peruvian, whatever. It’s a me-me-me world and anyone different is slammed, exiled, blown up, ignored, or just treated like dirt.”

  117. People who believe in imaginary beings that tell them what to do are very clearly crazy and a danger to themselves and others. They’re often the ones who start wars.

    Most victims have been brainwashed by their cult since childhood or taken advantage of during a time of great personal need.

    Most victims don’t even realize they’ve been brainwashed. They actually think everyone else is like them.

  118. […] A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no… […]

  119. @archiesteel
    “Okay, if God doesn’t micro-manage, why did he do it in the Old Testament? He actually did it quite often, going as far as smite people himself (including Aaron’s sons for not bringing the correct kind of fire to the ritual).”

    Yeah, he had to start over with the flood I guess. But simply put, I guess I don’t know for certain there is a God, I can only have faith that there is. Regardless of whether Jesus was the son of God, he was a good person and a model human being to emulate.

  120. I have enjoyed everyone’s contributions to the Master Sargents rebuttal. I believe in free will and freedom of speech, I am truly surprised that people get paid for their thoughts which are often misleading to anyone else. We are all trying to grow through the experience of life. One man chooses a military career and another becomes a news person. Why?
    I love a good discussion about Relgion, but I think it is time to separate God from Religion.
    In my head God is the power that drives the Universe. When good things happen to us some of say God’s looking after us and others say we are lucky. When bad things happen God’s punishing us or we are unlucky. That’s life!
    When someone acts religiously with blind faith they are not thinking for themselves this in my mind is what Religion of any kind intends to accomplish. Control.
    Anyway I thank all for their comments and thank any who hit a foxhole for freedoms of any kind.

  121. Jim K, I completely agree with you that having such a passionate and religious belief in Atheism kind of counters the very structure of Atheism.

    Lachlan MD, to think that Atheists are persecuted and Christians are not is a very ill-informed comment. Have you noticed all the self-proclaiming atheists mention how idiotic anyone who believes in “love bunnies” are? Though I would agree with them normally, I can’t seeing as they aren’t referring to “love bunnies”, but an all powerful, loving God. So, for the atheists to be taken seriously, ridicule us for believing in that. Not the tooth fairy or “love bunnies”.

    And last but not least, Concerned Human, get out a history book and take note that though polytheisim is an older practice, that Hebrews/Israelites/Jews have been worshipping one God for a lot longer than a few thousand years. So, in essence, its not that new a practice and really atheism could be said as being the newer practice and the baby in the family of world religions and the outcast seeing as it requires a belief in no God at all.

  122. @Tom Malone

    Just because God is beyond our capability to understand does not mean that he doesn’t exist

    no but because god is beyond our capability to understand mostly because the only proof was written 50 years after Jesus dies so its a collection of second hand accounts is plenty of reason why it doesnt exist.

  123. Master Sergeant, I salute you. Thank you for your eloquent statement that we atheists can be patriotic and honorable while remaining respectful of those who believe in Zeus and his offspring.

  124. […] Katie Couric: “No Atheists in foxholes” « Free Thought Forum A response from retired Master Sergeant Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no atheists in foxholes on a TV newscast… (tags: atheism news) […]

  125. […] June 22nd, 2007 https://freeforum.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/katie-couric-no-atheists-in-foxholes/ […]

  126. […] Gid L. White. After Katie Couric declared that there were no atheists in foxholes on a TV newscast:read more | digg […]

  127. I always wondered about the saying “there are no atheists in fox holes”.

    Interpretation I: The argument is not against atheists, but against foxholes.
    Interpretation II: Everyone in a foxhole has a belief, else they would not be there.
    Interpretation III: Atheists are cowards and self centred.

  128. Great article! Dugg!

  129. g

  130. Excellent letter. As a Christian, I object to the line “There are no atheists in foxholes” myself. I do not keep faith with God because I was desperate and miserable and afraid and wanted someone to rescue me. God is not my codependent.

  131. i’m eric. joining a couple boards and looking
    forward to participating. hehe unless i get
    too distracted!

    eric

  132. Hi all!

    What do you think about this? When it happens?

  133. Hey,
    I’m Gerry.

    Just saying hello – I’m new.

  134. Hello MSG (Ret.) White,

    Thank you for your thoughts. I’d like to add that I too am an Atheist. I’m active duty Army, currently serving with USASOC, and have been to Iraq. There are more Atheists in the Armed Forces than anyone may care to acknowledge. We serve honorably, professionally, and with a love for our country and fellow Americans. It’s a shame Religionists are always so eager to denigrate us and our service in an attempt to elevate their belief system. Thank you for your service, and the voice you give to a large, but silent minority.

    -Anon MSG, US Army, 1995-Pres.

  135. Hello

    Just stopping in to say hi to y’all as a new member.

    Aaron

  136. I am sorry for your hurt feelings; however I think that the said quote was more opinion than fact. So, I do not think that anyone should apologize for his or her opinion. And you do not mind expressing yours, thus it is quite hypocritical to expect someone to owe you an apology for theirs.

    Thank you,

  137. Good grief, the whining in this thread is overwhelming. Apparently atheists are as hypersensitive and mamby pamby as the overly sensitive fundamental religious types. Couric was NOT saying that atheists aren’t brave or aren’t patriotic. That’s not what she meant.

    Think. Use your brains. All she meant was that–in her opinion (which may well be wrong)–the fear of imminent death might drive a man or woman to ask God for help even if he/she professed to be an atheist up to that point. She may well be wrong about that, but it’s all that she meant. I can’t believe the hypersensitivity displayed here. Nobody is saying you can’t be atheists. Nobody is saying atheists should be discriminated against. Me? I can’t imagine the despair of thinking I only had some 40 odd years to go in my life and that’s it. I don’t believe every word of the bible literally, but neither can I wrap my mind around the fact that there’s absolutely nothing greater than ourselves in the universe.

    As you’re so fond of telling Christians and people of other faiths–lighten up atheists.

  138. […] first I didn’t like this. Pastor John used the phrase, “There are no atheists in foxholes.” To me that makes it sound like people are only Christians because they were scared into it, […]

  139. […] some of that 15 million a year she earns and donate it to Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society (NMCRS).read more | digg […]

  140. Hello my friends :)
    ;)

  141. This is a very poorly written rebuttal, no formality whatsoever. Atheists such as your self preach about free thought and expression. So if Ms.Couric decides that “there are no atheists is fox holes, that is her own view, and should no be forced to retract it. Plus on the very basis that you take offense to someone saying you might believe in god is just absurd. The fact of the matter is, that saying is a condescending one, but states that it is the natural tendency of all humans to look for some kind of comfort in a hard time. Such as being stuck in a fox hole. Because whether you admit it or not, with out the belief in God, life is meaningless. Something even Atheists relies when they are in bad situation.

  142. wow, im in the military, U.S. Marines Oorah! and yes this may have been said a long time ago but it is still an issue, religious humans still think this is true, so to clearify, yes it was ment to mean atheist are a lesser kind of person, and religious people are right. Which crap taco, lol, a true atheist will remain atheist from the day he/she actually realizes reality, and yes, maybe not in our time but some time religion will be gone and atheist will rein superior, but yes it is offensive to military personel whom are atheist as well as civilian atheist, and yes if she would have said religion is fake and there are no religious people in a foxhole, you can bet this would be a completely different conversation and a lot bigger deal to people. Someday, and when science and technology discover a way to bring past people from the dead, i.e. maaaybe clone memory ;-) i will be one so i can see the world the way it should be and the progress made due to religion being weeded out of society. ill be frozen when i die, hopefully that willl preserve me, lol, who knows. I definitally will not be buried in thought that that is how your god wants it and take my “soul” lol, wow, fyi ghost are fake also lol, anyway im very happy he brought up the argument and is letting everyone know, Atheist are the future.

    GREAT WORDS FROM THE WISE

    An Atheist loves himself and his fellowman instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now—here on earth—for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in knowledge of himself and knowledge of his fellowman can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
    Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellowman rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be build instead of a church An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother’s keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now.”

  143. Cpl. Feathers and all the other men/women in uniform who posted here: Thank you for your service and the protection of the rights afforded to me because of said service. As you can probably tell from that statement, I am not in the military, though I do have family serving. This topic hits close to home for me for many reasons– not least of all I consider myself an atheist.
    I have witnessed many a snub of atheists throughout my life, but to say that atheists are not fighting (and dying) for the pure love of my great country and everything it stands for (religiosity aside), is wrong on more levels than I can stand. This rebuttal is right on the money. I hope to see a day when atheists have the same or greater clout than any theist group, especially “Christians.”
    I am saddened mostly by the refusal by the MSM to recognize the bravest sacrifices made on the behalf of all Americans. It was said earlier, but I must repeat that it is a greater sacrifice to give ones life knowing full well nothing awaits one in the moments following ones death than is laying down ones life with the belief in mind of going on to a golden mansion in the sky for eternity (imho). If it is not a greater sacrifice, it most certainly is not a lesser one!
    So my gratitude goes out to all service men and women who have lost their lives and will not read this ever because of it– especially those who did so knowing full well the real personal consequences of their service.

    Love, respect, and mostly PEACE to all.

  144. I am offended that you are offended and that is just plain offensive.

  145. I am an atheist and I am writing a paper on the topic “there are no atheists in foxholes” for one of my college classes. I certainly do believe that this quote can be looked at as rude to atheists who are risking their lives for our country. I would even say that the saying can be switched around to say that their are no theists in foxholes because many soldiers who are religious when entering the military turn to atheists after being exposed to war.

  146. It’s pretty interesting to point out that atheist’s feel the need to use science(their religion)to disprove Christianity. When I was in the military I wasn’t ashamed of telling people i’m a christian.When I was in iraq i wasn’t ashamed.How many worthless degree’s on false science, you need to try to prove your false religion.The truth is I almost immediately lost respect for people who said they were atheists.Whatever rank they were in the military it didn’t matter. Especially when they try to tell you can’t do thing’s like invite people to church by using their rank on you.Get a clue atheist’s that people aren’t going to accept your ignorant belief’s.

  147. I am sorry that you are so offended by this old saying. You mention that you enlisted in 1964, and you knew athiests of all m.o.s. over your time in service, but with such a strong stance you never give any evidence that you were actually put in a situation inwhich your beliefs or lack there of were questioned. You think in such a detailed response you wold talk about your combat expierience. You also mentioned that you retired as a Master Sgt. That tells me you were not in a combat m.o.s. If you were you would have retired a 1st Sgt. (in command of troops). As a former athiest who saw the light during intense combat, I truely believe that there is more to life than one giant algorythm. This is an individual transformation and should not be seen as an us vs you type thing.

  148. Moral dilemna!

    Wazzup! Been just reading for a while and just decided to write!

    So something has been bugging me for a while now . This is what transpired: School was out and I was heading home, I was starving so I stopped in at this restaurant and picked this sandwitch from the menu and took it to a table and sat down when it suddenly occured to me they didn’t charge me!

    Yeah evidently they were super busy and distracted because there was this manager/investor type looking around everywhere and talking to them. So I was just about to go up to the counter and say I hadn’t paid but then I realized if I did that the owner guy might get mad at the employees. So I just left. What should I have done do you think?

  149. I came across this thread after seeing this quote on Magpul’s website. They supply AR-15 parts to our military. I find it fascinating that no one posting here, including the original author, had really any basis in philosophy or few really possess the ability to launch a logical argument regarding these statements. The answers to the quote and the master sgt’s rebuttal have weeks of debate behind them. Being a Christian, I will of course propose some of the logical arguments of why an atheist would even care about what Katie Couric, or anyone says, for that matter. Since there is no God, the earth was an accident. Atheist don’t believe in the spiritual realm so there really is no such thing as good and evil. Since we are here by accident and just evoluitonary creatures, then it follows that there should be no more remorse over a soldier dying in the foxhole than there is over an ant getting squashed on the sidewalk. Another offshoot of trying to reconcile this denial of God is the popularity of secular Humanism. It teaches that man is basically “good”. Weird, since “good” is really part of the dualism aspect of good and evil but we will let them borrow the term. The really silly thing about that is that if man is basically good, then why is he trying to kill other men?? Maslow said that society makes man bad, but isn’t society propagated by humans, who are basically good? Wake up and look around. The earth today provides more evidence that man is basically evil than good. But really who cares anyway because we really weren’t supposed to be here. This whole mess was just an accident. We should have no more remorse in blowing some Iraqi away than a lion does when he is eating an antelope carcus. Evolution has played a really cruel joke on us though, in that we have become self aware. Now we waste our lives in this silly search for “meaning” and “purpose”. But that is a joke anyway. Meaning is such an ethereal term and purpose is totally stupid when you consider again that there is no purpose to this whole mess. And really, why are atheist wasting their time in the military anyway. If I thought this was all I had I would be out sexing up as many woman as I could and partying like a rockstar because I could get squashed any minute. That’s great about caring about your fellow soldiers, but what is that really all about. And while we are on the topic, what are all these silly emotions included in our DNA for anyway. If you ask me, they just interfere with us making the most of our short, pitiful existence. Oops, there I go again using words like existence. What is that anyway? Again, another cruel joke of evolution. Okay, enough foolnessness. I have found that everyone possesses faith in something, even if it isn’t religion. Saying you’re an atheist and then proposing a rant like our master seargent friend is about as stupid as claiming to be a Christian and then living like the devil. It’s really a joke if you ask me. His words and actions don’t match up. Why does he care? He obviously doesn’t believe there is a scorekeeper so who really gives a ….??


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Categories

%d bloggers like this: